In this special "intervention" episode of the Infrastructure Technology Podcast, Brandon Lewis, Jessica Parks and Noah Kolenda team up to challenge Gavin Jenkins' long-standing skepticism toward infrastructure in the Southwest. The group highlights the region's investments in public transportation and how Southwestern states are leading the way in climate resilience, sustainable infrastructure and technological innovation.

Listen time

27:07.

Here is a transcript from the episode:

GJ: Welcome to the Infrastructure Technology Podcast. I'm Gavin Jenkins, head of content for Roads and Bridges. And with me, we got a full team today. We have Brandon Lewis, associate editor of Mass Transit, Noah Kolenda. Noah, what is your title? Tell the people who you are. 

NK: I'm also an associate editor.

GJ: You're both associate editors. Okay. And we have Jessica Parks, staff writer for Roads and Bridges. I'm fumbling here at the beginning because I'm so excited to talk about artificial intelligence today. It is the implementation era.

BL: Well, wait, hold on, Gavin. Hold on, hold on, hold on. 

GJ: What? What's up?

BL: It's Tuesday. It is a podcast today, but we are not talking about artificial intelligence today. 

GJ: That is what's on the schedule. What are you talking about?

JP: We are having an intervention, Gavin. This is an intervention today about your negative opinions about Southwestern infrastructure.

GJ: Oh, please. Give me a break You mean my correct opinions about the Southwest infrastructure?

JP: Nope. We're here to tell you you're wrong, right, Brandon and Noah? 

NK: We are.

BL: Yes, we are.

GJ: So this is like a roast?

JP: Yeah.

GJ: Okay. All right. Challenge accepted. Let's let the intervening begin then.

BL: Alright. Well, I'm going to volunteer to go first because Gavin, you have had a lot of opinions on this podcast, and I'm just going to throw a little Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson in here right now and say it doesn't matter what you think because I'm going to tell you why the Southwest actually has beautiful infrastructure. And guess what? You can't have beautiful infrastructure without transit. So I'm going to tell you about all the beautiful things that are going on in the Southwest when it comes to transit. First of all, Valley Metro and the South Phoenix area. They have added so many new transit lines in the past year, including its South Central Light Rail Extension. It's got one of the best streetcar options in the country. It also features a fixed-route bus service where you could take any bus you want to any part of the city, and it's also put a big emphasis on safety, placing agents on trains so that you feel safe when you're riding. Las Vegas and Phoenix, they've also both invested these cities in transit-oriented development, which is building apartments near transit lines for people to have easy access. Vegas is also focusing its transition on zero-emission buses. They're operating hydrogen fuel cell electric, battery-electric and clean diesel buses to better help the environment. And if you want to pick anywhere in the country to live, public transit has to be one of the major deciding factors, so that's my pitch for you.

GJ: That's your pitch? That's all you got? I will shut that down in a heartbeat but is there more? Do you guys have more arguments?

NK: Of course there's more arguments because the best transit, some of the best transit in the country is being facilitated by some of the best payment options for transit in the country. So the RTC of Southern Nevada has made a lot of open payment upgrades system-wide. So no matter where you're at in their system, you're able to pay with a debit card, a credit card, a mobile wallet, a smartwatch, no apps or paper passes needed whatsoever. You're good to go with what you have on you, but if that's not enough, and if you do want a further option, take it on over to Valley Metro, where they've outfitted their whole alignment with new ticket vending machines, a smart card system, as well as account-based ticketing. So all of your transit payment options are available in the same platform. So whether it's bus, rail, light rail, any transit modes out in the region, you're covered under one app, which is incredible for underbanked or unbanked individuals, and especially in a region where they have such a growing aging population because of the climate. Having one solution where you can manage all of your fair payments in one area is a fabulous technology to have, and while this is coming around the country, this is something that's been built up alongside the new developing region or transit options in the region and is not just a retrofit that's being done piecemeal. And then finally, these are some of the safest systems in the country because they're implementing a ton of new safety technology. RTC of Southern Nevada became the first to implement gun detection AI software in their system, providing an extra layer of safety on top of all of the safety benefits that Brandon has already run through for us.

GJ: Wait, wait, wait. So if someone's chewing gum and is about to spit it out, they detect it?

NK: Sorry. AI firearm detection.

GJ: It's gun. Okay.

JP: AI finds out first. 

GJ: Alright. Keep going. 

NK: So AI gun detection, courtesy of zero eyes. And so really all these safety and technology upgrades are coming alongside a growing system. They're not being retrofitted piecemeal. They're coming online with the rest of the system as it develops, so this technology is fortified alongside the transit system it's designed to work for.

JP: Now, Gavin, maybe this is somewhere you could relate a little more. We're going to roads and bridges. You're a roads and bridge guy. Hopefully my pitch will seal the deal here. So with Arizona, Nevada, the Southwestern states dealing with some of the most ruthless extreme weather in the country with triple-digit temperatures, prolonged drought, flash flooding, dust storms and significant elevation changes. I think that it's building the infrastructure for tomorrow. They're dealing with the problems that much of the country is going to be dealing with in years to come, and the Southwest is already facing these challenges, so with extreme heat accelerating, pavement aging, causing rutting and cracking, research and agencies throughout Arizona have been studying asphalt performance under these conditions and testing ways to improve durability through new pavement mixes, preservation strategies, and material innovations, and I would argue that with these difficult conditions that the Southwest face, I would argue that's exactly why it's leading innovation. Arizona experiences temperatures many states are only beginning to see with climate change. In that case, they're leading the charge in finding pavement solutions that can survive the extreme heat expected in our future.

GJ: Alright. Anything else?

JP: I have more. I just wanted to hear from Brandon.

GJ: Okay. Brandon, do you have more?

BL: Well, I do, Gavin. Oh, so by the way, I know you're so focused on Las Vegas and Phoenix, but that's not the only two cities in the Southwest. You also have a city like Albuquerque who, as Noah has mentioned too, they are one of the safest transit systems. They have a bus rapid transit line that's reached 10 million rides in the span of six years. If you think about it, that's a little bit less than two million rides per year on one system alone. I mean, you have pretty much all of the transit options that you could get right here.

GJ: I have some questions for the three of you. You ready? These people who are taking, these citizens of the United States who are taking the buses and the trains and driving on these roads and bridges in the Southwest and Albuquerque and Tucson and Phoenix and Las Vegas, where is their drinking water coming from? Is it coming from the Colorado River? The answer is yes, it is. They are stealing water from another state's river so they can shower, so they can use the dishwasher, so they can wash. The elephant in the room for this is the long-term water availability that it affects all infrastructure planning, and that is the bedrock of my negativity towards Southwest infrastructure. I'm not denying that their metro system or their roads or bridges. I understand safe, efficient, excellent design, just innovative. I acknowledge that and I admire it. However, can infrastructure ever catch up with endless outward growth? The sprawl, the sprawl of Phoenix. I mean, if you flew in and out of Phoenix, Arizona, you would see it. It is just an endless urban sprawl surrounded by desert. That makes no sense whatsoever to me. The development patterns may outpace sustainable water resources, so what are the people who live out there going to do when water starts to become so scarce? The infrastructure isn't just roads and bridges. It's the systems that support those communities, namely water. Also the grid. The electrical grid is constantly under stress out there. There are long travel distances because of that sprawl in the Phoenix area that I mentioned. And then of everything that you guys just said, which is all true, it's expensive to maintain. Maintaining those roads and bridges is so expensive out there and whenever those hardworking men and women are on those asphalt roads that you mentioned, it is 100 degrees. They're in desert heat working on asphalt roads. It's insanity.

BL: It is, but I do think that as technology evolves over time, it's going to be a lot easier to implement a lot of those things you're talking about faster, safer, cheaper, more efficiently.

NK: I'd also counter that the region has a great potential for energy generation through geothermal opportunities. And so in the name of sharing resources, if the region can generate excess electricity and power that could be shared throughout the rest of the country, I feel like a similar solution could be come to for water resources in the area, and that if we're delivering excess power out of the region, we could be delivering additional water into the region as a give and take.

GJ: Well, when you get into that though, you're opening a can of worms that gets political very quickly, and I think that the Southwest is a very politically divided place with a lot of people who love oil and don't like anything solar, and I think it's really hard to do that kind of stuff, though I do agree with you, Noah, those are valid points.

JP: I would argue, Gavin, that the Southwest is working is at the forefront of water preservation. Every gown matters when you're building construction in the Southwest, and agencies and contractors have been forced to think differently about construction practices due to this. Maintenance schedules and asset management because they operate in a region where water is limited and drought is a constant concern. ADOT's resilience planning specifically identifies drought as a major transportation challenge. So because they don't have the luxury of assuming resources will always be available, that pressure pushes agencies toward more efficient construction methods and smarter long-term management of infrastructure assets, one that can be emulated as resources continue to dwindle across the globe. We have to think about the fact that water is going to soon be precious across the country, and ADOT is already considering that. So hey, I wouldn't bash them because we might be there soon, too. You never know.

GJ: I hope not. I hope not Pittsburgh. Oh my God. Okay. All right. So I see what you're saying there is ADOT is very innovative and maybe they're coming up with solutions that the rest of us will face someday and maybe what they're doing today will help us down the road. I can see that argument. That's a good argument, Jess. I like that.

JP: Hey guys, I got the first good argument.

GJ: But I still think that you're dealing with the desert. And so that extreme heat of 100 degrees for long stretches in the summertime, you're getting serious pavement damage. There's expansion joints, there's worker safety, there's equipment performance and then there's asphalt rutting and maintenance windows. The climate is becoming increasingly expensive infrastructure problem and so I just see the Southwest as this place where sustainability and resiliency are massive problems. I'm not denying the innovative streak that is in all the agencies out there, whether it's Nevada's DOT, Arizona's DOT or New Mexico's DOT. I just think that people are moving there in droves, and I think that the infrastructure isn't keeping up with the amount of people. And then there's the congestion that leads right into that. Phoenix congestion, I mean, I've sat in that traffic a few times, and that congestion has increased significantly as the Metro has grown. Las Vegas, I've been there twice this year, and especially during CONEXPO, my God, it took us an hour and a half to go five miles. Las Vegas experiences recurring congestion because of people like us who travel in and visit, and it's around the tourism corridors and suburban growth areas like Henderson, and I mean, building roads isn't the same as solving mobility. Let's say you guys.

BL: You're also though dealing with that congestion problem in other parts of the United States, obviously New York, LA, Chicago, Philly, DC, etc. So it's not like congestion is a Southwest thing, and there's a reason why there's so many people living in a certain city because they want to be there for one reason or another.

GJ: That's true. I always question why people live in certain areas. I don't understand, but I don't judge. I mean, you live in Cleveland. I don't judge. A bunch of Browns fans. I'm not going to say anything, but the thing is with that congestion compounded with the heat and the water, and I just think that it becomes, for infrastructure, a maintenance issue. Like I said, it's very expensive. The new infrastructure is easy, but maintaining it for 50 years is much harder. So what happens when today's growth becomes tomorrow's deferred maintenance? And then of course, the housing situation, their large suburban expansion, that means longer utility networks, larger roadway systems, higher lifecycle costs. Who pays to maintain all this infrastructure in the Southwest in 2060?

BL: It does, but I think, too, the transit-oriented development and the TOD is a big part of that. Building housing and apartment complex is right next to transit stations to give people access so then they don't have to go on those long trips.

NK: I’d also say too, that these systems are being developed too with this long-term climate issue in mind as well. For instance, the recent launch of Valley Metro's S700 light-rail vehicles came with heavy duty desert purpose-built AC units so that these cars would be able to last longer in the region and have a more fortified system than the same type of model that would be deployed not in the desert.

GJ: Okay. Alright. Well, before I make any final decision on whether or not I've been swayed, I'd like to go around and ask each of you a couple of questions. Alright, Brandon, would you move to Las Vegas or Phoenix?

BL: In a heartbeat.

GJ: In a heartbeat?

BL: In a heartbeat. Oh my goodness. If I could tomorrow, and I'm not joking about that. I love my hometown in Cleveland, but I have had aspirations really since I turned 18 and became an adult of one day, whether it be tomorrow, 30 years from now, moving to the Southwest.

GJ: Okay. All right. Jess, you recently moved from Boston to Tulsa.

JP: Yes.

GJ: And so you're clearly headed West in that direction.

JP: I’m almost there.

GJ: So Albuquerque, Phoenix, Las Vegas, let's say that you've moved to one of those, and you're drinking water, you're putting water into your pitcher, your filter Brita filter system pitcher, and you fill it up and you put it in your refrigerator and then you wash your dishes and then you take a shower and then you go and you sit in traffic on your way to meet some friends. Is any of that going to weigh on you? Are you going to wonder, ‘oh, what are we doing with this infrastructure’?

JP: I mean, so water comes from somewhere everywhere in the country, but I lived in New York City, and we would siphon our water from the beautiful upstate New York, which I understand is the same state, but this beautiful part of upstate New York called the Shokin Reservoir was where we got all of our water at completely beautiful untouched part of New York had to transfer all of its water to the…

GJ: I thought New York just drank from the East River. You guys drink in the East River water? 

JP: Yeah. That's why there's the teenage ninja turtles.

GJ: Okay. Noah, my next question is for you. Let's say that you've already moved, you're living in Phoenix, and the Metro system, the buses, the Metro, everything is shut down because the energy grid, it's gotten so hot that the power has gone out. So now you have no AC, you have no Metro, you have no mass transit. Will you regret moving to the Southwest?

NK: See, I gather the point that you're trying to make. However, all of those things happen here in New York City. I'm currently roasting to death in my apartment. The subway system could get to 110, 115 degrees and slow roll due to heat. It's not something I'm not already experiencing. Granted, that would definitely be on a way more significant scale with hotter temperatures, but we have to face a fact, and that is the entire U.S. is facing a climate crisis, and granted, the Southwest is definitely getting the brunt of it, and first, but it's been in the 100’s here in New York City this summer. It's not something I'm necessarily not already experiencing, definitely in small doses, but it is already happening. So personally, I don't really think that that would push me towards regret, I guess. I think I'm going to be escaping climate emergencies my whole life.

GJ: Okay. So you think that the DOTs in the Southwest, they're ahead of the curve on climate adaption?

BL: Yes, 100%. 

GJ: Okay. Is rapid population growth evidence of successful infrastructure or infrastructure under strain? One or the other? Which would you say?

BL: I would say more of the infrastructure strength.

GJ: Okay, successful infrastructure. Okay. Jess, do you agree?

JP: I don't really. I think that these places are. Yeah, I guess infrastructure strength, but then also just other parts of the country becoming so expensive.

GJ: Phoenix has become one of the most. Phoenix and Vegas are extremely expensive places to live. Okay. So before I get to my verdict and how I feel, I just want to say that I had never been to the Southwest until I took this job. This September, in a couple of months, I've been here for five years as the head of editorial for Roads and Bridges, and within my first couple months, I hopped on a plane to go to Tucson for an equipment media event. I flew from Pittsburgh to Phoenix and then from Phoenix to Tucson for the event. I had a window seat for the entire trip and so when we were descending into Phoenix, I got to look out the window and just see the urban sprawl. It was just brown, brown, brown, and then gray urban. And then flying from Phoenix to Tucson, it was just desert, desert, desert. And then it was green with all these golf courses that were in the middle of the desert, and it's just like, where are these golf courses getting the water to keep these lush greens so green? Eye popping from the airplane, green. And then what I did is when we were in Tucson, after the event was over, I rented a car, and I drove from Tucson up to the Grand Canyon because I had never seen the Grand Canyon before, and I did get to see Northern Arizona, which is some of the most beautiful countryside I've ever seen in my entire life. It is gorgeous in Northern Arizona, but I then drove back down into Phoenix and flew home, and the southern part of Arizona to me is just urban sprawl and congestion and hot, and it was very confusing to me that anyone would want to live there but also how it has gotten so big, so it has always been something that I've looked upon negatively, but three of you who I admire and respect and trust have changed my mind. You guys have changed my mind. I will stop being so negative about Southwest infrastructure. I will be more positive, and I will be optimistic that the DOTs in the Southwest are helping the rest of the country with their innovation and their climate resiliency and that we will learn from them in the future. You guys have won.

JP: And people, this is why we talk to people when you have differing opinions in them. Look at how we bridge the divide today.

BL: Well, I am now personally nervous that Gavin's going to take his previous anger towards the Southwest and just move it about two hours away from Pittsburgh and more towards my home down to Cleveland.

GJ: Well, I mean, the river there has caught on fire a couple of times. So no, I would never do such a thing. I feel like everyone in Cleveland is my brother or sister. I love Cleveland so much. It is such an underrated city. I don't understand the heights in the suburbs. There should just be hills. I don't understand Heights, but we've been through the Heights Hills things before in our first episode, I think, but I adore. I tease Cleveland like I tease my brothers and my cousins and my family. 

JP: It’s the way you show your love.

GJ: Yeah, I adore Cleveland, and I think it is so cute when people in Cleveland root for the Browns. It is adorable. 

BL: Trust me, it is.

GJ: Hope springs a turtle in Cleveland every year when the NFL Draft rolls around and then the paper champions appear. Okay. Well, this has been the ITP's first ever infrastructure intervention, and I think we are out of time. We're at the 25-minute mark. So Maz, if we go any longer, we'll have to face Karina Mazhukhina. So any closing thoughts, Brandon?

BL: Thank you for finally acknowledging the Southwest.

GJ: Jess?

JP: I agree. I'm very proud of me, Noah and Brandon today, and I am proud of you for accepting a different opinion.

NK: I'm so proud of this growth.

JP: We're a growth-oriented podcast.

GJ: We support growth. Okay. Alright, we want to thank Endeavor B2B, our parent company, and we want to thank Karina Mazhukhina, who edits our podcast and mixes it all together and makes us sound very good, and we want to thank you, the listener. Please write us at [email protected], and we'll be back next week with a new episode. Maybe we'll finally get back into that, the planned episode of AI implementation on connected job sites. But until then, I'm Gavin Jenkins.

BL: I'm Brandon Lewis.

JP: I'm Jessica Parks.

NK: And I'm Noah Kolenda. 

GJ: Until then, goodbye.