Infrastructure Technology Podcast: JTA's NAVI autonomous vehicle program

Episode 7 kicks off with the return of Two Truths and a Lie, a trivia segment that quickly derails when AI gives Gavin an incorrect answer about the Great Wall of China. Brandon then struggles to find the correct country for a trivia question involving the world’s longest bridges before interviewing JTA CEO Nat Ford about the city’s NAVI autonomous vehicle pilot. Ford details how JTA is transforming its aging Skyway system into a 10-mile AV corridor, emphasizing rigorous safety testing, phased automation and a mission to expand transit access without displacing bus drivers. The show closes with Ileana’s look back at the 1928 Bunion Derby, a coast-to-coast footrace.

Here is a transcript from the episode:

GJ: And welcome to the Infrastructure Technology Podcast. I'm Gavin Jenkins from Roads and Bridges, and with me, as always, we have Ileana Garnand, the digital editor of Roads and Bridges, and we have a man who is fuming and full of energy. Brandon Lewis from Mass Transit magazine. Brandon, tell him what day it is.

BL: It is Tuesday. It is a podcast day. And Gavin, I am not fuming over the fact that the Mass Transit September/October issue has just went live as you're listening to this right now on the ITP, but I am fuming over Endeavor Business Media fantasy football. We will not get into it, but I had one of the worst losses in the history of fantasy football, as we're recording on this Tuesday, so I'm coming in with a lot of energy today as we're talking autonomous vehicles on the ITP.

GJ: Alright. well, yeah, we live in a world where we could have lots of fun entertainment and lots of fun distractions, and fantasy sports is certainly one of them. Before technology came into play, people used to take fantasy football, and Ileana is yawning and is asleep as I'm saying this, but you used to have to take the USA Today. The Tuesday edition of the USA Today had breakdowns of all the box scores, and you'd have to scour those and then write them and do it all by hand and pencil and paper, and if you didn't live in the same town as the people in your fantasy football league, you were mailing them and you'd have the commissioner just had to go get a USA Today.

BL: Now that is nuts to me as a Gen Z. That drives me nuts.

GJ: Yeah. Whenever I first started doing fantasy in high school, that's what we would do and that was in the 1900’s?

BL: The 1900’s, yeah.

GJ: . I mean, when I started it was like 97, 98, and I didn't have internet in my house yet. I didn't get internet in my house until the spring of 99.

BL: Well, I'll tell you guys this. I remember going over to my grandma and grandpa's house, and this was probably in the mid 2000s, and my grandpa still had dialup on the old computer. That was the time.

GJ: Well, that's my sign off of goodbye. That's where it comes from. Whenever you would end your time with a OL and unplug your dialup, a OL would say goodbye like that to you. It's a little nod to our technological past. Ileana, growing up, do you ever remember a time where you didn't have internet?

IG: I think we always had it. I don't recall if I ever used Dialup. That doesn't sound familiar to me. Oh my god, I remember the big family computer in the den, and it had the big old keyboard that was very cliquey and the giant screen.

GJ: The monitor was tall and wide, right?

IG: Yes, the equipment was giant, but it would turn on with a push of a button and then load pretty quickly, so I don't think we ever had dial up because the screeching sound that I've heard people share on different things, I don't remember ever hearing that.

GJ: Wow. Well, kudos to you for being a young person and living in the age of internet. Alright, well before we get started, Brandon, why don't you tell us what we have in store for today?

BL: So today I am interviewing Jacksonville Transportation Authority, CEO Nat Ford, and Jacksonville and the transportation authority are one of the leaders in autonomous vehicles, and they just launched their NAVI service back in June. We talk about the process it took for JTA to get this service to begin the testing phase of the AVs, the technology behind the AVs, all of it. It's a really in-depth, fascinating interview. I can't wait for you guys to hear.

Yeah, it sounds fascinating, and it's the cutting edge technology that people want to hear about and it scares a lot of people, right?

BL: I think it depends. I mean, are you guys willing to ride in a vehicle that is not driven by a human? That's what it comes down to.

IG: I don’t think so.

GJ: I don’t know.

IG: I think it freaks me out, so I'm excited to hear the interview and see if it changes me

GJ: Me, too. See if it can change my mind. Alright, but first we have the game that people have been asking us to return to and play again. It is Two Truths and One Lie. Are you two ready to play?

BL: Yep.

GJ: Okay. Our first one here, I will read you three things. You let me know what is the lie. Number one, the Hoover Dam was completed ahead of schedule. Number two, the Panama Canal was originally started by the United States and number three, the channel tunnel connects England and France. Very easy. What one was the lie? Ileana.

IG: You say very easy, but I'm going to say that B, the Panama Canal. I don’t know though. I don’t know.

GJ: Brandon, what do you think?

BL: Boy, Gavin, you came at us today firing on all cylinders.

GJ: I feel like that's an easy one.

BL: You do? Because I think Ileana and I are sort of on the same page.

GJ: Well, let's break it down. The channel is pretty well known to be between England and France, right?

BL: I didn't know that. 

GJ: You don't know that? You don't know about the channel?

BL: No. My international history, if you will, is not good at all, period.

GJ: Okay. Alright, well, what do you think it is?

BL: Well, for some reason I thought I heard the fact that the Panama Canal was originally created in the U.S. somewhere in history class. I don't know, so I'm going to go with A, the opposite of Ileana here and hope I get the point.

GJ: Okay. The Hoover Dam was completed ahead of time. That is true and so Ileana is correct. The Panama Canal was originally started by the French, not the United States.

BL: Okay, cool, alright.

GJ: Okay, next one. The first traffic light was installed before cars were invented. The interstate highway system in the United States is longer than the Great Wall of China. Roundabouts can reduce injury crashes by up to 75%. This one's near and dear to Roads and Bridges right here, all three of them. So Brandon, what do you think?

BL: I think the 75% number is the lie. I don't doubt that roundabouts obviously help prevent these crashes, and again, I don't know if 75% is too low or too high. I feel like it might be either 70 or 80 and 75% just feels a little bit off to me.

GJ: Okay. Ileana, what do you think? Do you agree with Brandon?

IG: I do. I do agree with Brandon. I feel like the first traffic light could have been before cars for horses, horse-drawn carriages, and I feel like the interstate system is longer than the Great Wall of China. This could be a bias, but I have a good amount of roundabouts near me and people in Texas don't know how to use them., so I don't think it's reducing crashes by that much. I do think it is a good safety tool, but yeah, that seems like a high number.

GJ: Okay. alright, well, you are both wrong, and the lie is the interstate highway system in the U.S. is longer than the Great Wall of China. The Great Wall of China is much longer. The Great Wall of China, which I have been to twice, is 13,171 miles long.

BL: Wow.

IG: Wow.

GJ: It is gorgeous too. It's really cool.

IG: How long would that take a person to walk?

GJ: A while. There are people who've done it obviously, and it is very scenic, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know how long that would take you to walk. I mean, it's like walking across the continent. I mean, how many miles long is the U.S.?

IG: Thousands or the interstate system is thousands of miles.

BL: Well there it is dead air here. I guess I will fill in, as they are Googling it. We got to get a camera locked in on me here, so what's the answer?

IG: I'm not Googling.

GJ: I was Googling. So great podcasting with the dead air. So the roundabouts, it can reduce crashes up to 75%. That is true, and you saying that a lot of people don't know how to use them brings up a really interesting point. I have found that there's a lot of people in suburbs that don't like them, and it's really interesting. I love them. There's a lot in my part of Pittsburgh, and I think they make it so much safer

IG: I like them. I saw them a lot more when I lived further north in DC, but there are a couple here in Texas, and I think it throws people off, especially people who've stayed in the state their whole lives.

GJ: So the continental United States from just east to west is 2,800 miles and from north to south is 1,650 miles. And again, the Great Wall of China is 13,000 miles.

BL: Oh my God.

GJ: It is long. I ziplined off of it.

BL: Whoa.

GJ: Yeah, there's a part and then there's one where you take a mini rollercoaster off of it. Yeah.

IG: Oh, fun.

GJ: I mean there are parts of it that is a pure tourist trap, and then there's other parts of it where you can just walk for miles and miles and miles and not see anybody, but yeah, the zip lining off of it was awesome.

BL: Zip lining scares the heck out of me. 

GJ: Really? Oh, it's fun. 

BL: It looks fun but any of those devices or contraptions that are, I can get hooked in. I am scared to death that the hook is just going to break off, and I'm going to fall to my death.

GJ: So you're not into any kind of daredevil type things?

BL: No, I mean rollercoasters are the best thing you could get me on. Honestly, I don't know. I feel safer with a seatbelt or a bar as opposed to something being hooked on me, if that makes sense.

IG: I can see that.

GJ: I just Googled the interstate highway system length to double check, and the AI overview is saying that the interstate highway system in the U.S. is approximately 48,890 miles long, which by my calculations is longer than 13,000 miles.

BL: Yes.

IG: Yeah. See, as a human, I can verify that that was a Roads and Bridges trivia question. It's approximately 49,000 miles.

GJ: Wait, how did I just mess up Two truths and a Lie?

BL: We are on a podcast, and we are examining the reality of AI ladies and gentlemen.

GJ: AI gave me that Two Truths and a Lie.

IG: That's why you cannot trust AI, Gavin. You cannot trust AI giving you information like that. You got to make the questions yourself.

GJ: Well, one set of AI has given me this 48,000. The other one's given me the other one. Okay, alright, well, these clankers are messing up our podcast.

IG: You can't trust clankers, Gavin.

GJ: You can't. You really can't. I'm a bit of a daredevil myself. I love zip lining, I love skydiving. I've never bungee jumped. I've gone hang gliding. I love whitewater rapids, I love all of it. Anything that gets my adrenaline pumping is what I like. So Brandon, you would never go skydiving?

BL: I mean, if you could convince me that a thousand percent sure I'm going to be safe, and it's not like a far, far distance, but I don't know, I feel like I'd have to go with a trained professional that knows what they're doing.

GJ: Well that's what you do is you go up high into the air. I mean, you don't want to go too low into the air because then you don't have that much time for the parachute to open up and you to be safe so you go up high, and you're strapped to a professional who's a licensed jumper and then you jump out and pretty much as soon as you jump out, they throw the parachute up into the air, and you fall like a hundred feet a second, something crazy like that, and the free fall is the greatest thing in the world, and there's so much force coming down on you that you are almost like, I mean it feels like you're on a surface because of the wind, and you move your arms and your legs out, and it is a rush. It is a rush like no other. So you'd never. Ileana, are you into anything like that?

IG: I've done zip lining. I've done those adventure parks where it's like a ropes course. There's one that opened near me where it's very industrial, and you can climb the walls inside and outside of the building, which is really cool. I have not sky dove or bungee junk. I am afraid of heights in a very particular sense, but I think if I'm strapped into something or strapped onto someone, I could do it. I don't like it if I'm on a balcony way up super high, and I feel like I'm not connected to something. The straps are enough for me.

GJ: Yeah. Well join us next week as we go skydiving with Gavin, Brandon and Ileana. No. oh, and by the way, 1868, London had traffic lights for horse-drawn traffic. 1868.

BL: Thought so.

GJ: Okay. alright, let's go to the next one. Asphalt roads existed in ancient Babylon. The U.S. has more bridges than any other country and the Malu viaduct in France is taller than the Eiffel Tower. I probably mispronounced Melu.

BL: Somebody email us at [email protected], make sure we get a pronunciation right,

IG: But also Venmo me every time you send me a pronunciation correction.

GJ: Yes. $1.

IG: Yes. You have to pay me to make me read that.

GJ: So what do you think, Ileana? Which one is the lie?

IG: I'm leaning towards B. Again, the U.S. is a large country, but there's a couple other really big ones that are probably going to have tons of bridges as well, so that's my answer. I think the U.S. does not have the most bridges.

GJ: Okay. Brandon, what do you think?

BL: Yeah, sorry listeners. I know you guys probably want me and Ileana to disagree, but once again, we are on the same page. I am among the same sediment that the U.S. is a big country, but there are countries bigger and while our infrastructure is good, as we've learned on the ITP, what they're doing overseas with the technology and the way they're building these bridges to make them last for decades and centuries, I think that what they're doing internationally is extraordinary and so my answer is also B is the lie.

GJ: And you're also guessing the correct answer as being what country?

BL: No, I'm just saying that other countries have more bridges than the U.S.

GJ: Do you want to guess? Okay, you're both right. Can you guess which country has more bridges?

BL: I'm going to say Europe. 

GJ: Europe’s not a country.

BL: A country. Country. Oh my god. Okay, well keep that in Illeana, please. The ITP listeners can roast me. Okay, I'll go with Africa. 

GJ: Oh my god, it's not a country. Brandon. Oh my god. It's so funny. 

BL: Okay, I'm picking a random country. Amsterdam, let's go with that.

GJ: Amsterdam, Brandon is a city.

BL: Oh my god.

GJ: Amsterdam is the city in the country of Holland. Let's take a deep breath. Brandon, think about large countries in the world.

BL: England.

GJ: You think England, which is the size of Connecticut, has more bridges than all of the United States?

BL: At this point, sure.

GJ: Alright, sure. Alright, Ileana, what country do you think has more bridges than the United States

IG: I'm torn between China or India. Those are large countries with a lot of people that would need bridges, so I'm going to go ahead and guess China.

GJ: Yeah, and the answer is China. Okay, cool.

BL: I was actually going to say that or Japan. Now that I'm actually thinking about it's so Japan, actually, Japan is, you guys know I failed geography as a student in school, okay. Can you guys see that?

GJ: No, you did. You failed geography. Japan actually is much long larger than most people realize. I mean it's stretched out, I believe now it would be, if you put Japan up against the East Doast of the United States, it stretches from South Carolina, I believe up towards Maine.

IG: Okay. wow.

GJ: Yeah, it's very long. I'm probably wrong. Email us and tell us how wrong we are. [email protected]. That was Two Truths and a Lie, and I think with Brandon's hilarious answers, we should just call it a game. And coming up next is Brandon's interview with

BL: JTA CEO Nat Ford, and believe me, I have much more knowledge on AVS than I do about countries.

GJ: You do. You are a savant when it comes to Mass Transit, and we're looking forward to that interview coming up next.

BL: And welcome back to the Infrastructure Technology Podcast. I am Brandon Lewis and I am here today with the CEO of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, Nat Ford, and we are here today for an episode that I've wanted to do on the Infrastructure Technology Podcast for so long and let's talk about autonomous vehicles, AVs, in the Jacksonville area. Now, you guys have started this NAVI pilot system that we are going to get into today, but before we do, what's JTA and the use of AVs and what's sort of the goal with AVS throughout Jacksonville and for the agency?

NF: Well, Brandon, it started first with the Skyway system we have here in Jacksonville, and the Skyway is a 2.5-mile automated people mover. It was built approximately 30 or so years ago and now it's reaching the end of its useful life, and we've had a great deal of difficulty actually keeping it up and running due to lack of parts and the obsolescence of the technology, and so when we started looking at a replacement for the Skyway, we also, as the JTA, we are a road building entity, and we recognized that autonomous vehicles, there was a great deal of discussion about their introduction in terms of surface transportation. We saw an opportunity with the replacement of the Skyway to better connect our communities with the leveraging of this new developing autonomous vehicle technology, so the original Skyway was to be a 10- mile network connecting the core of our downtown to the neighborhoods surrounding downtown Jacksonville that never got to its full potential. It was stopped at 2.5 miles. We creatively looked at how we could leverage the autonomous vehicles to actually reach that promise and secure that promise that was made to our citizens leveraging the aerial structure of the Skyway, and in its first few phases, it actually was a roadway at elevation with rubber tire vehicles operating on it, so our plan is to actually build a 10-mile network that actually uses the 2.5-mile aerial structure and then is extended with extensions into those surrounding neighborhoods. We set out to not just replace the skyway, but to leverage the new technologies that were being developed, and the project has been very satisfactory, with phase one launching on this past June 30th of this year, s it's very innovative. We didn't just settle for replacing the existing skyway and trying to expand that. We looked at, and we embraced autonomous technology, and we believe not just with the core Skyway system replacement, that there is an opportunity to use these autonomous vehicles in first mile, last mile applications throughout our community.

BL: Can you talk a little bit about how the service works in general?

NF: Yes. So phase one is a 3.5-mile loop that opened up on June 30th, and that is operated with 14 autonomous Ford Eran vehicles. We had to be Buy America compliant and that 3.5-mile loop extends from the core of downtown out east on Bay Street to our sports and entertainment complex on the eastern side of downtown Jacksonville. It's been up and running since June 30th. We're averaging somewhere around 150 passengers a day, seven minute headway in terms of frequency. We built a control center, the AIC, to actually monitor and operate the vehicles, as well as maintain and charge those vehicles, and so we've been very pleased with the development of the operation. Phase two will be the conversion of the Skyway and then with our road building acumen, either through spirals or ramps, we will be able to take the vehicles up onto the 2.5-mile roadway and then eventually the extensions beyond that, we'll be at grade also ramping down or spiraling down to street level, so it'll be a 10-mile system that is planned to be fully completed within the next eight years or so.

BL: Am I correct that obviously, these are AVs, but is there any type of JTA personal attendant on board or are they completely autonomous?

NF: Yes, so these vehicles can operate in what's called level four autonomy, so they can operate without an attendant. Interestingly enough for two reasons. One, we thought from an introduction of the technology with the public, it was necessary to have a human being on the vehicle to help educate the public, help with public acceptance of this new technology. We just thought that was crucial in terms of the implementation. Also from a safety standpoint, this is an evolving technology and in this corridor there's a significant amount of construction work that's underway. There is Four Seasons that is under construction. There's the Museum of Science and History that is under construction. There is the headquarters for the Jacksonville Jaguars. As I mentioned, it's the sports and entertainment complex, so EverBank Field, where the Jaguars actually play, is under reconstruction at this juncture, so we found even through our bread crumbing and testing of the route, the 3.5-mile route, that almost on a daily basis, that road infrastructure was being modified through construction efforts and so for the next six months to a year, we'll keep an attendant on the vehicle for those various reasons and then eventually we will go to level four autonomy, which is 100% without a human being to intervene.

BL: At this time. we are recording today on September 9th. I know as a sports fan this past Sunday the Jags had their first game. Was this the first time that the AV service ran in conjunction, I guess with a regular season game, obviously there was a preseason game.

NF: Exactly. We, in conjunction with the city of Jacksonville and our Jacksonville Sheriff's office, we made a decision to not introduced NAVI during the Jaguar games. We felt the construction that's underway right now is presenting enough challenges with parking, as well as traffic lanes in that corridor, and so we felt that we'd wait, forego this actual season in terms of NFL games and then be in a better position next year working with the Sheriff's Office and the city of Jacksonville so that these vehicles can be part of that game day experience

BL: Before the service launch, cn you talk a little bit about the entire testing phase? I know you guys went through a ton of testing, including with the UTC program.

NF: Yes, we were very fortunate. Our board of directors accepted and approved the staff's recommendation to create our own test and learn facility. It's the arms de Test and learn facility, and we tested over eight different vehicle platforms so that we had a very in-depth understanding of the AVs, the technologies and their capabilities. In 2019, we were able to secure a federal grant, a build grant, to actually begin the building of the Bay Street Innovation Corridor, also known as NAVI. Now, that's the acronym Neighborhood Autonomous Vehicle Innovation system, and that testing put us in a very good position to actually work with the private sector developers and scientists who were developing these technologies and be on an even playing field in terms of what we thought the system's limitations, as well as potential truly could be in terms of a public operation. Fast forward to the testing of the Ford Eran vehicles. We did a great deal of dynamic testing system testing at the Sun Tracks facilities in central Florida, where we tested the vehicles in terms of the sensors, the capabilities of the vehicles and then another set of tests were developed here in Jacksonville along the route and that testing period ran for a number of months, I'd say at least four or five months that we, after receiving the first of the NAVI vehicles, began a series of tests. The challenge is though, what is the accurate amount or the appropriate amount of testing that is necessary in this environment? We went to the very far edge, recognizing the importance of safety of our citizens and our passengers, as well as other automobile users in that corridor. We put these vehicles through some very extensive testing and developed, I believe somewhere in the range of about 190 actual tests that had to be passed before these vehicles were allowed to carry passengers.

BL: In terms of the testing, you mentioned that obviously this lasted for months. What were some of the challenges or maybe what was something that you guys changed in the testing phase to launch?

NF: Yes, so in terms of the testing, I would say maybe in layman's terms that these vehicles were very, very tight in terms of their sensing of any obstructions, any abnormalities in terms of what it was actually encountering, so in the very beginning, we saw some hard stopping, hard braking and accelerating and things of that nature, and as the vehicles and the systems become more and more familiar with human and automotive interaction, they become smarter, and they're less sensitive, but to have a vehicle that actually can see nearly a whole city block in every direction, it's seeing far more than a human being sees and then a vehicle reacts very, very crisply or harshly in some cases. We had to work with our contractor, Beep, I think people are very familiar with the Beep name. We worked with Beep and started reprogramming the vehicles so similar to your iPhone or your Android device, a series of system and software upgrades, adjustments of the LIDAR sensors, radar sensors and camera sensors. So through that testing, we were able to very fine tune the operation and even on June 30th, when we felt comfortable to launch for passenger service, we had a series of upgrades and tweaks along the way, and even as I'm speaking today, we're looking at those actual adjustments. We adjusted the speed. For example, we were operating well over 30 miles per hour in certain quarters. We found that as the vehicle is sensing, any kind of vehicle passing it or someone potentially opening up a car door, a parked car, opening a car door, you would get that harsh braking. We made those adjustments over time, with the system upgrades to smooth out the ride. We actually slowed the vehicles down in terms of their actual operating speed, so if there was a need for a hard brake, it wasn't so jarring inside the vehicle, so it's a system that is truly under evolution, and we recognize that we will not be out of the testing and evolution phase for some time.

BL: So the vehicles went from 30 miles per hour to how much are they currently running now?

NF: They're running about 25 miles per hour at this juncture, so not enough to affect our scheduling and our headways, but enough to really affect the customer experience in the vehicles. Another part of the testing also was customer experience, and for the 90-day period, it'll end at the end of this month. We've made the system complimentary. We've had visitors from around the globe. We've seen grandmothers with their children and their grandchildren actually travel to Bay Street to ride the NAVI and have this experience and so their feedback, feedback in terms of the operation has also been introduced into our adjustments and modifications for the service.

BL: In terms of booking rides, is it very similar to how passengers book for bus service?

NF: Exactly similar. I mean, so right now we have a open payment system that was also introduced at the time NAVI was launched, and that system will be engaged on October 1st when we start charging fares, so we will be very excited about that interaction and that's all the more reason to have ambassadors, as well as the attendance on the vehicles, to help our customers understand how to pay for a fare board the vehicle, and then periodically we will do random fair inspections to ensure that people are properly paying their fares.

BL: Is the goal at the end of all this, once you finally get the technology and it's been running for a while, is the goal for this service to just be complimentary of the bus service?

NF: Yes, we do not see autonomous vehicles replacing our conventional fixed route bus service. At this juncture, Jacksonville, we're covering over 870 square miles. Our biggest challenge is getting people to our first coast flyer BRT and our network of fixed route bus service. When we talk about first mile, last mile challenges, that is here in Jacksonville, and we see these autonomous vehicles, these shuttles being a very cost effective and efficient way, and I'd say effective way to get our customers to that main fixed route bus service from their front doors and from their communities that in some cases literally they're miles away from public transit, and this will be a great connector, and we are excited about that opportunity. It will enhance public transit overall in our community.

BL: He is the CEO of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority. He's also the immediate past chair of the American Public Transportation Association. Nat Ford, thank you so much for joining me today on the Infrastructure Technology Podcast.

NF: Alright, well thank you so much Brandon, and just a little correction. I am a past chair of APTA, but I'm not the immediate. I'm a couple of years back, but thank you so much for the opportunity, Brandon.

GJ: Alright, we're coming back. That was Brandon Lewis's interview with Nat Ford. Ileana, what did you think?

IG: As I said at the top of the episode, I am a little scared of AVs, but this was the first time I heard about them in the context of public transit. I'm used to the Waymo's zipping around Austin at dangerous speeds, so I actually would be interested in riding on one of these. It was reassuring that they only go about 25 miles an hour and also that they're starting out a trial period and still having a human there to help with operation. That also was a big reassurance, so I think this is actually a really interesting endeavor, and I am more for AVS being used as public transit and being branded by cities and localities than a third party company.

GJ: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that you nailed it. Nat Ford, the way they explained it to Brandon was very calming and relaxing and also intriguing, and it made me want to try one out as well, and I think it could really help public transit.

BL: I think, too, one of the bigger takeaways for me was this service is designed to not replace, but enhance the bus service, and Nat was very articulate in describing that this is not going to replace regular bus service. This is not the complete future. Everything is not going to be anonymous, and there's going to be no drivers. That's not the point of this. The point is to give people another transportation option and get them there safely by using the technology that we have in the 21st century.

IG: That is also a big reassurance that bus drivers in the area don't have to worry about losing their jobs. It's not a cut. Like you said, it's another option.

GJ: Bus driving is one of the hardest jobs just in the public service sector. It's really hard. I mean, I used to know a bus driver here in Pittsburgh, and they time them, and they cannot be too early to a bus stop or too late, and if they miss that window, and the driving test, oh my god, from what I heard, the driving test was really hard, which is good. This is good. The drivers that are driving buses are really talented.

BL: It takes a lot of patience to be a bus driver, not only in public transit, but the same can be said for schools, too. My cousin just recently started being a bus driver for a local school district in my area, and he was like, I think he's doing intermediate, third, fourth, fifth grade. He was like, you do not believe the noise those kids make on a bus.

IG: My big thing is just people can act like a fool on a bus. Been on many buses where people are yelling or being weird, and that bus driver is keeping their cool and taking you to your stop.

GJ: Alright, well moving on. We have one more thing for today's show and Ileana, why don't you take it away.

IG: Talk about something that requires a lot of patience. Today, we're going to do a history segment. We're going to go back about 100 years. In 1928, we had one of the earliest 20th century multi-day races here in the U.S. The official name is the Trans-American Footrace, but we're going to go with the cooler nickname it got, which was the Bunion Derby. The Bunion Derby was organized by the nation's first sports agent, Charles Sea Pile, and it was charted to begin in Los Angeles and finish in New York City, and this is scheduled to be about a two month race. First place gets $25,000, which would be around 411,000 today. I'm not sure if that would be enough, or who am I kidding with? We're journalists. That would be enough to entice me, but still. So the trail followed Route 66 from a starting point to St. Louis, bringing racers right through Springfield, and the total distance was over 3,400 miles in less than three months, and the people who ran the race, it was 199 runners. They left Los Angeles on March 4th, only 55 runners finished on May 26th in New York.

GJ: What year is this?

IG: This is 1928. It's by foot. They're followed by cars to make sure they're okay. They're not out there alone, but still the winner was a man called Andy Payne, and he won the event in 573 hours, four minutes and 34 seconds.

GJ: Wow.

IG: Yes.

GJ: And they didn't have sneakers back then either. No wonder they called it the Bunion Derby.

BL: See if I'm Andy. when I reach that finish line, I'm diving, and I'm throwing my arm up in the air going, ‘I won!’.

IG: For real. I did it, and I didn't drop out. These guys are running through Arizona, New Mexico, Texas. Climate change hasn't ravaged us terribly yet, but it's got to be hot from March to May. It's still going to be pretty hot I think.

GJ: I could never do that. That is brutal.

IG: So it doesn't, my sources don't tell me exactly what shoes they wore, but a shoe repair shop did follow them on bus.

GJ: Oh, wow.

IG: Their shoes were perhaps

GJ: A mobile cobbler.

IG: Yes, a mobile cobbler was following these guys.

GJ: Daniel Day Lewis retired from acting to become a full-time cobbler and now he's back with a new movie.

IG: He should look into this.

GJ: Yeah, that should be Daniel Day Lewis's next movie, the Bunion Derby.

BL: Bunion Derby, there you go.

IG: Yep, the Bunion Derby and the reason why they called it the Bunion Derby was because so many people got bunions, and they dropped out.

GJ: Have you ever had a bunion?

IG: I don't think so.

GJ: I have never had a bunion, but I've had plantar fasciitis, and I know that I would never make it in the Bunion Derby. My poor arches would probably collapse.

BL: Yeah, I don't think people realize how bad foot injuries hurt. If there's a body part on your body that you don't want hurting, it's probably your feet, in particular, your big toe or your baby toe. It makes it impossible to not feel pain.

GJ: Sounds like you have someone on your fantasy football team that has some turf toe.

BL: No, I don't. Thank goodness, this year, hopefully.

GJ: Alright, okay, what a fascinating thing in the 1920s because also you're walking across country. There aren't that many gas stations at all, so there's no places to go to the bathroom on this journey. It's just a rough walk.

IG: Rough race and winter. Andy Payne, he moved at an average of six miles an hour.

GJ: That's pretty fast. I would've been walking.

IG: Yeah, I would've been strolling, leisurely.

GJ: Leisurely stroll from coast to coast.

BL: I mean, the fact that you complete it at that point, honestly, the prize money's great, but I just walked the whole United States practically.

GJ: And the road system back then must've been treacherous, so yeah, it is crazy that they did that. Okay. Alright, that is all for today's program. Thank you to Nat Ford for joining us and great job on that interview, Brandon, for we got some people to thank, right? We want to thank Endeavor B2B for letting us have this great podcast, and want to thank you, the listener, for tuning in. Thank you to Ileana and Brandon for all the production work that they do behind the scenes, and for Ileana and Brandon, I'm Gavin Jenkins. Tune in next time and until then, goodbye.